Society September 17, 2018
Amsterdam’s mayor Femke Halsema has told local broadcaster AT5 that she will close down mosques if imams are spreading messages of hate but ‘only as a last resort’.Halsema, who outlined her strategy to deal with radicalisation in a briefing to councillors shortly after taking office, said that closing mosques is ‘a very rigorous action and that is something you only do as a last resort.’
You must be able to act if ‘an imam gives disgusting sermons, such as saying women should be subservient or that homosexuality is a crime,’ the mayor said.
And she reiterated that unlike her predecessor Jozias van Aartsen, she did not plan to develop links with fundamentalist and salafist organisations.
‘I will not invite people who are not democratic and who do not take equality between men and women seriously to the office,’ she said.
Read this and more at DutchNews.nl Thanks to Lima for the suggestion.
I agree with the notion of closing down mosques if the Imams was proven to spread hate speeches. However, if that notion was to be implemented, it should also be applied to other worshipping places too, such as synagogues, churches, and temples. Every religion and beliefs should be treated equally. The mayor should also converse with priests of every religion to temper fundamentalism and radical thoughts as the mayor is the mediator of the people to other actors, she has to act as a proactive.
ReplyDeleteI would also criticise the Mayor; she said; ‘an imam gives disgusting sermons, such as saying women should be subservient or that homosexuality is a crime,’ if she wants to eliminate radicalism and fundamentalism, she should not be radical liberalism. She may say that the imam spread hate speeches, but she should also accept liberation of thinking even if the other people’s notion is considered a hate speech.
I have to disagree with Ryan regarding the closure of mosques if the imams were proven to be radical. It is not the mosques that should be taken into account in combating radicalism. But instead, it should be the imams themselves that need to be investigated, as it is known that unlike churches and synagogues, mosques have no clergy, and thus, its influence is not as substantial as the other two worshipping places to its attendees, and it is much easier to replace imams than to replace priests and rabbis.
DeleteAs for the mayor, I hold no grudge against her view on the imams, as she is entitled to her opinion on the apparent sexism and homophobia in the speeches of the imams. The truth is, Islam as a religion is the greatest force in maintaining patriarch society, so it is advisable for Dutch Muslims to commit to their religion in a very close-knit scale to avoid resentment from the rest of the nation.
What I agree with Raul’s stance of the Mayor is entitled to her opinion in detrimental homophobia and sexism in the speeches by the clerics. However, I do not think she is entitled to combat fundamentalism and radicalism through exclusive resentment to Muslims, even if it is apparent that the perpetrator is the Imams.
DeleteHypothetically, it is the Imam’s fault if a mosque becomes a place where negative sentiments arose, and hate speeches were conversed because what the Imam had been saying. However, in practice, if that happened, the tendency of a growing number of people become influenced by the apparent Imam should also be taken into account. I would argue that actors affect the place’s name and how the broader public knows the particular site. In this case, the Imams influences the Mosque’s public image, and if the public perception is bad, it will gather more negative sentiments for the Mosque, meaning more sexist and homophobic Islamists gather, and I do not want that.
In conclusion, it should be demolished, so it will not be the base for hate speeches for the greater good in the longer run.
Why does saying that homosexuality and sexism is bad makes you a "radical" liberal? Isn't it the essence of the liberal ideology to uphold the rights of individuals? A problem with the term "radical" is that people freely label others as "radical" without a proper idea of what counts as "radical".
Delete'...I do not think she is entitled to combat fundamentalism and radicalism through exclusive resentment to Muslims, even if it is apparent that the perpetrator is the Imams.'
DeleteI cannot see how the mayor shows "exclusive resentment to muslims" as she only said that she will close down mosques that promote hate speech. What you're committing here is a classic logical fallacy called the straw man, where you misrepresented and exaggerated the mayor's stance to make it easier for you to attack. Here you are trying to paint muslims in general as victims, even though the only affected parties would be imams who sow hate speech in mosques.
Spot on, Rayhan. The mayor was just naturally drawn into making her citizens safe and sound, due to the presence of the allegedly radicalised imams. However, it does not indicate a blatant bigotry from Femke Halsema towards the Muslim population of the Netherlands, as what Ryan was trying to imply with his comments.
DeleteRyan argued: “... it is the imam’s fault if a mosque becomes a place where negative sentiments arose...“
Even without the presence of a “radical imam”, the Muslims are already subject to negative sentiments, so instead of victimising the mosque and its attendees solely because of one imam, there should be a stricter selection by the Muslim union of Amsterdam in allocating imams all over the city in order to avoid such problems to arise. As I previously mentioned in my first rebuttal to Ryan’s initial claim, mosques do not have clergy; Sunni Islam and Shia Islam are institutionalised in governing bodies instead of separate mosques. Thus, one imam in charge of a mosque does not have as much influence as a priest to a church, or a rabbi to a synagogue.
Ryan, you got to admit defeat here, bud
DeleteThe decision made by Femke Halsema, the mayor of Amsterdam, is essentially a difficult decision to sacrifice some freedoms of speech in order to maintain what is perceived to be the greater good. Banning speeches that undermine the government’s ideals of democracy and equality is done so that said speeches do not gain traction and snowball into a force that can actually demolish said ideals. This is a sensible decision, because if the freedom of speech is left unrestricted, even to speeches that try to undermine freedom itself, then it would be paradoxical. An example would be the period of parliamentary democracy in postwar Germany (the Weimar Republic) wherein everyone were free to create their own parties, even if their main goal is to demolish democracy itself. The result of this freedom was the rise of Hitler, who was allowed to work and gain influence within a democracy to ultimately complete his goal of abrogating democracy in Germany and becoming an autocratic ruler.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with the decision that the mayor made. I believe that every religion taught good deeds to it's people. No religion has taught us to hate or to discriminate one another, so if one person is doing bad don't blame the religion, blame the person. If the Imam spreads massages of hate and disgusting sermons, she should punish only the Imam not the whole Muslim by closing it's mosque. If she only closes the mosque without doing anything to the Imam, the Imam can still continue to spread his sermons anywhere. If she closes the mosque, where would the male muslims done their prayer?. In addition, before taking any actions the mayor must first learn what Islam is and what are it's principles and beliefs because from this article, what the Imam taught can not be considered as a massage of hate. Islam does taught that homosexuality is a crime but it never taught us to discriminate or to harass those homosexuals.
ReplyDeleteLectori salutem,
ReplyDeleteBefore answering to the main topic, I would like to state the following first:
Amsterdam is an open-minded city with the most diverse population in the world. Even though it contains a lot of different cultures, I would guess that only 5% is religious, everybody else is atheist.
The churches are almost not in use anymore and the amount of mosques is negligible.
In other words, I think that religion is less important than in Indonesia. I also believe that equality is one of main pillars of our culture and values.
Equality is something we fought really hard for and something we should be proud of. Therefore it hurts me personally when people say that women are less than men or that homophile is a disease. That is the reason why I agree with mayor Halsema’s decision to close mosques when the imam tries to undermine our national values or spreads hate. Im sure Femke Halsema would do the same to any other religion if needed.
I do agree with what Lima stated. "Equality is something we fought really hard for and something we should be proud of." I think religion should be more private and individual here in Indonesia. Not that I disagree with what is happening right now in Indonesia, but I just think that sometimes religion is such a public thing in Indonesia. It should be between you and God only. But I think compared to few years ago, Indonesia has finally calmed down and tend to be more relaxed towards the difference of religion. I think that is a really good step for us Indonesians. I've been to Amsterdam twice, once when I wasn't wearing a hijab yet and the second time was when I was already wearing a hijab. Both were the same. I never felt like I was discriminated. The people there don't really care about what your religion is and what you're wearing. They only care about your personality and how you behave. I think people should to this anywhere in the world. Treat all people the same and as what the saying "don't judge a book by its cover." said, we shouldn't judge people by it's physical appearance only.
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DeleteHello Sabrina,
Thank you for your comment. I’m very pleased to hear that you enjoyed your stay in Amsterdam. Since it is my hometown, I have a very strong connection to this place and I tend to take criticism about my city (too) personal. Therefore I am very happy with the way you described your experiences. I think you are correct by saying that we don’t care about someone’s religion or origin, instead we care about one’s behaviour. We are open to any religion and people are free to practice their religion wherever they want. However, since Amsterdam is a multi-cultural city, it is very important to not discriminate anyone. In my opinion people should be able to think whatever they want, even though I personally disagree with their thoughts. Nevertheless, I believe that they should keep those thoughts for themselves because according to our values these people have the same rights as anyone else. Just to put it in context: the first gay marriage ever was in 2001 in Amsterdam.
I think that this action of closing down mosque is to harsh. I can say this because I am a Muslim. The main use of having a mosque is to do our prayers, same like how Christians have churches. Another use of having a mosque is to strengthen the bond of the Muslims around the area because we are expected to pray 5 times a day if possible inside a mosque. However, i agree that actions must be made if the imams are spreading messages of hate. In Islam, we are never taught to spread hate, thus we are actually taught to spread kindness. Religion for me is a basis for us to know the good and bad deeds in this world. If we have faith in our religion, we are expected to become good people. Taking actions to imams that are spreading message of hate is not wrong, but closing down the whole mosque is just too far. If you are closing down a mosque, it also affect the whole surroundings that are not actually wrong. I recommend that the mayor should think of another act of 'last resort' other than closing down a mosque.
ReplyDeleteWe all know that spreading messages of hate or hate speech is a forbidden thing to do. Not only in Amsterdam of course, but in Indonesia, that kind of thing is also a forbidden thing to do, because it can break the unity of a country. If it can be proven that the imam in Amsterdam's mosque shares hate speech to people, well it is true that closing the mosque is the very last option to do, if they cannot handle it anymore. But, if they still can handle it, they can do the easy way first to erase this practice of hate speech in the mosque, because it can make people in Amsterdam worried. The mayor said that people must do act if the imam gives disgusting sermonts such as saying that homosexual is a crime. Well, every country ia different though. Every country has their own culture. In Indonesia, homosexuality is very very bad thing to do. But, not in the european countries. But i think, from the first, moslem always taught their followers that homosexual is forbidden. So, i think it is okay to say that in the mosque, as long as it doesn't come out the mosque and offend the people, because homosexuality is very normal in the european countries. But as log aas the Imam only teaches that in the mosque, i think it is okay, because that theory is already exist since a very long time ago, and the imam only says it to the moslen people, and not to the all people of Amsterdam. So, if the mayor wants to close the mosque just because the imam forbid homosexuality and assume it as a crime, i think it is to too much.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think that closing down the mosques is not the right decision and I have to say I disagree the decision. I think that there is another way to solve this problem other than closing down the mosques. Amsterdam’s mayor, Femke Halsema, could have just reminded those imams who gave that hate speech and gave a penalty to whoever does it again. However, I don’t think that the imams gave that speech intended as a hate message. Every religion has a principle in what is right or wrong and people can’t judge because every religion is different, even though there are some things that are the same. In Muslim, things such as homosexuality is haram. But not all Muslims agree with this state even though it is forbidden. The imams can still give the speech about homosexuality, but as a warning, not as a hate message. In my opinion, if people don’t agree about something, rather than spreading hate about it, they should just keep it to themselves.
ReplyDeleteUpon the closing of mosques around Amsterdam many parts of the society there is affected. The culture in Amsterdam needs to be understood first in order to see the justifications that are made by mayor Femke Halsema. In my opinion the steps that have been taken by the mayor to cease activities and the shutdown of mosques is wrong. This is because it violates the basic human right to practice and express religion. It elevates the kind of situation that was made by Hitler back in the 1940's which is racism. It must be re-evaluated the steps taken by Femke Halsema, as I am sure there is a better way to approach this problem. In my opinion the radical muslims should be observed and then separated from all the other members. With a type of enforcement like this, we are not giving the whole muslim religion a negative sentiment but also maintain stability.
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DeleteHi Hassya,
I agree with your statement that there might be another way to solve this problem. However, I don’t think that it is correct to compare the major of Amsterdam, Femke Halsema, with Adolf Hitler, a fascist nazi leader.
The reason why she threatens with closing the mosques in the capital city is because she wants to protect other (maybe more important) human rights.
Islam is also the biggest religion in Amsterdam, but the size is incomparable with Indonesia. Only 5% of the population is Muslim and only 13% of this 5% visits a mosque at least once a month. There are 8 mosques in total. In this case were talking about one mosque that is infamous for the amount of members that went to Syria to fight for ISIS. Punishing the Imam didn’t seem to work, because every time they have a new Imam, the same problem occurs.
As we all know its no longer uncommon to hear news about conflict on a daily basis . These days everything such as small unrelevant arguements or statements can be made into a conflict. These conflict are usually the result of idiots being brainwashed by a certain trustable leader. The Certain trustable leader i am talking about can be a demented public figure with a high position in the society. It can be rich people who owns media companies, a political figure or it can be Religious figure such as an Ustad or Imam to be specific. I would like to highlight the latter part of my previous sentence as these people tend to be radicalist and idiotic. I hate radicalist people , especially those who thinks that they are the most righteous and holy person in the world. These fake Imams in mosques are using religion as their weapon.
ReplyDeleteThey impose negative preaches to brainwash their followers which usually leads to barbaric conflict involvng violence and even killing. So as my Passage says, i agree with Amsterdam’s decision to close down mosques in which the Imam and Ustad give hate speech. These hate speech is very harmful for the community as it can result in a large scale conflict. But i have to say that it should be the last action to take as taking down a mosque as a first measure is the same as putting fire out with fire which basically just makes the fire even bigger. SO i believe that the first action to take is by taking down or imprisoningthe Imam or Ustad who are giving out hate and negative speeches and just wait dor their follower’s reaction. If they were to stay calm that the conflict is solved, but if it reslts in further conflict than taking down the mosque is the best action to take.
ReplyDeleteAccording to a 2012 research study conducted by Pew, Muslims are the second largest religious group in Europe, constituting approximately 5.9 percent of the population. Mosque is an important place to muslims. By way of background, many Muslims view mosques as a divine house of worship reserved for spiritual reflection and prayer akin to a Christian church, Jewish synagogue, Buddhist temple or Hindu mandir. In some communities, a mosque is a place of social. So based on the text that stated Amsterdam’s mayor Femke Halsema has told local broadcaster AT5 that she will close down mosques if imams are spreading messages of hate but ‘only as a last resort’. This action is acceptable to me if the imams gives a radical or hate speech, because radical or hate speech can gives a negative impact to the people and the muslim society as well. But to handle this problem Amsterdam’s mayor should replace the imams instead of closing the mosque, since the mosque is an important place to all muslims.
ReplyDeleteIt is still really hard to build a mosque in europe because For some Europeans, however, purpose to built mosques are a symbolic representation of Muslims, a visible imprint of the group’s cultural presence. Similar to controversies arising in the American context, the debate surrounding European mosque construction plans may reflect popular anxieties about fundamentalism, expressions of gender inequality, links with extremism, etc.
ReplyDeletePopular and political opposition may also be undergirded by a fear of Islamic power and dominion. This is because a purpose-built mosque visibly alters landscape and territory. In contrast, makeshift or ad hoc mosques are unrecognizable as such and are plentiful throughout Europe. In Greece, a country that was subject to Turkish Ottoman rule for nearly four centuries, Muslims have been struggling since 1971 to build an official mosque in Athens, reportedly the only capital city in the European Union without one. Their efforts stem from a desire to accommodate the faith practices of a growing community. Approximately 500,000 to 700,000 Muslims live in the area, and currently pray in ad hoc (unregistered) mosques operating in old garages, warehouses or cultural halls. Again, these mosques are invisible just a sign or plaque identifies them as such and little to no debate surrounds them.
Hi Nurul,
DeleteI agree with you on the point that in Europe a lot of people have an ungrounded fear of Muslims. However I am quite sure that this is not the case in Amsterdam. As I believe I already commented earlier on this post, Amsterdam is the most multicultural city in the world. As also stated by Sabrina, I am sure that in Amsterdam nobody is afraid of Muslims. Moreover, the major of Amsterdam, Femke Halsema is part of “GroenLinks” (GreenLeft) party, a political party that is well-known for its immigration policy. They want to help as many immigrants as possible, and therefore pledge to open the borders for people from Africa. In this case, we are talking about a mosque that is famous for the amount of people that went to Syria to fight for IS (Islamic State). This does not meet with our values and is therefore seen as undesirable.
Personally I think that maybe the government’s decision to close the mosques in Amsterdam could be the right thing to do if its proven that the imam spread messages of hate towards other religions. I do believe that every religion should be treated equally. I also believe that spreading hate messages about other religions is very bad thing to do, as it could damage unity between groups. Other solutions could also be by keeping the mosques in place, because the government has to consider that the mosque is used by Muslims to do their prayers, by removing the mosques could give difficulties for Muslims to find places to do their prayers, so the government has to take action by replacing and investigating the imam. Replacing and investigating the imam will be better than removing the mosques because it will remove the possibility of future hate speeches.
ReplyDeleteSo talking about mosques in Netherlands, the biggest mosque in the Netherlands is the Essalam Mosque at Vredesplein Rotterdam. This mosque can accommodate around 3000 people. The mosque was inaugurated on December 2010, by the Mayor of Rotterdam, Ahmed Aboutaleb, of Moroccan descent. In Rotterdam, it is estimated that of the around fourty percent of the people are Muslim. No wonder Ahmed Aboutaleb was elected mayor. In addition to the essalam mosque, there are a number of mosques in Rotterdam, which are managed by the people of Pakistan, Morocco, Somalia and even Indonesia. The mosques were originally churches and parts of apartments. Because of this, Islamic schools also grow. In 2006 it was estimated that there were around 40 elementary schools, high schools. Islamic organizations emerged. Some of them later became the members of the Muslim Netherlands federation , which links with the Dutch Government.
DeleteDear Pramudyo Ari Nugroho,
DeleteI strongly disagree with some of your statements, simply because what you say is not true. I would like to start with your statement about the amount of Muslims in Rotterdam, since your facts are incorrect. You claimed that 40 percent of the people in Rotterdam are Muslim, but this is actually 12%. You also claim that the mosque has place for 3000 people, but the fact is that it’s only big enough for the half of that amount.
Also your statement about major Aboutaleb is not true. You said: “In Rotterdam, it is estimated that of the around fourty percent of the people are Muslim. No wonder Ahmed Aboutaleb was elected mayor.” This can’t be the case since in The Kingdom of the Netherlands a major is not elected but assigned by a commission instead. However most of your statements are false or incorrect, don’t take what I say too personal.
This a great debate and very enjoyable to read. Well done for being so cal and collected and listening to each other.
ReplyDeletecal = calm
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